In the first-ever Momentum Masterclass, negotiation expert Caroll Dweck Sutton breaks down the top 10 negotiation tips that could help you earn thousands more — from landing a higher starting salary to asking for a raise with confidence.
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Transcript
Victor M. Braca: Hey guys, welcome to Momentum Masterclass. This is a brand new series which focuses on teaching you the skills you need to excel in both business and your personal life. Whereas Momentum gives you an inside look into the lives of professionals, how they got to where they are, the struggles they faced, and the lessons they learned along the way, Momentum Masterclass is a little different. It’s more focused on actionable takeaways.
I’ll be sitting down with experts to break down the how: how to negotiate better, how to invest in the stock market and prepare for an early retirement, how to network like a pro—the list goes on. And for our first episode, guys, I’m so excited. I sit down with Caroll Dweck Sutton, career coach and Executive Director at the Propel Network, an amazing organization empowering women in every stage of their careers.
I know Caroll from when she ran the Shiffie Hanon Pathfinders Department at Yeshivah Flatbush, and she’s taught me so much, which is why I’m so excited for you guys to hear our conversation. We discussed some amazing tips for negotiations, from the biggest mistakes people make when talking about money to the strategies that can help you negotiate like a pro. And trust me, this is the kind of advice that could literally make you hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of your career. I guarantee you you do not want to miss this. Let’s jump right into it.
Caroll, welcome to the first Momentum Masterclass. Thank you for being our first instructor, teacher, professor—what should we call you?
Caroll Dweck Sutton: Professor for sure. Professor Caroll.
Victor M. Braca: All right. So, give us a quick introduction of who you are and what you do. I can, but I think you could probably do it better than me, so go ahead.
Caroll Dweck Sutton: I’m the current Executive Director of Propel Network. We’re a nonprofit that helps women navigate their careers. That could be anything from figuring out what they want to do, or helping them figure out the best job for them, or helping them start a business or take their business to the next level, or inspiring them through a new podcast.
Victor M. Braca: Yes, Chapters by Propel. We’ll link it in the description.
Caroll Dweck Sutton: Let’s do it. Before that, I was working at the Yeshivah Flatbush Pathfinders Department, which is the best. I got to work under legend Shiffie Hanon, who really taught me so much about everything that I know. I was the Director there for a few years, and while I was there, I also realized this huge need for people to get help in their careers that nobody was really doing in the community. So I started my own career consulting business called Careers by Caroll. I think that’s really where I got my start thinking about negotiations and doing a lot of the research that we’re going to talk about today, because I was helping people find their next career move or pivot, and then part of that was, “Okay, I’m about to maybe get an offer. How do I navigate that?”
Victor M. Braca: For sure. And you are not new to the podcast world. You had a podcast, Careers by Caroll. It’s kind of similar to Momentum in a way in that you interview people. So tell me a little bit about that, and then we’ll get into the topic of this episode, which is effective negotiation. How do you talk about money? This is really for everybody. All right, cool. So let’s jump right into it. Give me the first tip for talking money.
Caroll Dweck Sutton: Okay, so I’ll say this: the first four tips are things that you have to do before we even get into the room with the person you’re negotiating with, and then the next four are ones that you’re going to do once you’re in the room.
I would say my number one tip—not because it’s the most important, but because it’s the first thing that you have to do—is you have to start getting comfortable talking about money. I don’t know if things have changed, but when I was young, it was like nobody talks about money, especially to girls. I hope that that’s changed, but I was shaking in my pants to ask a friend for $2 that they borrowed from me. I did not want to talk about money to anybody. So then, obviously, when I’m getting to my first salary negotiation, I’m super uncomfortable.
I think the best thing that you can do from now, even if you don’t have anything in the future lined up, is start getting comfortable talking about money. My favorite way to do that is in foreign countries, because I feel like when somebody’s a stranger and you don’t know them, you can just kind of bargain with them. Finding those markets where you could just kind of negotiate the prices with them, especially when there’s a language barrier, it just makes it feel like it’s fake. Those are the best places to do it. You could also do it on the flip side with really close friends and family. Talk to them about what their salaries are, what they’re spending on things. Just get comfortable with it, because or else it just becomes this very daunting thing to talk about, and then the one time you have to talk about it, you’re forcing yourself.
Victor M. Braca: It’s funny how you said foreign countries. When I was in Israel and I went to the shuk, they always cut you more than what you tell them. They want to charge you more; they want you to buy more. The girl was telling me, you know, I was telling her “cut here,” she’s like, “no, here.” I was like, “no, cut here.” She’s like, “okay, I’ll cut there.” And then she cuts extra. She gave me like double what I wanted. I was like, “I didn’t ask for that. It’s too much. I’m not paying for that.” It’s not even about the money; it’s about the calories! So we’re talking, I’m bargaining with her in Hebrew. I was very impressed with myself.
Caroll Dweck Sutton: Good for you, by the way.
Victor M. Braca: And then she’s like, “okay, fine, I’ll lower it. I can’t sell it if you don’t take it and I already cut it.” She lowered it to whatever it was. I was like, “Wow, I just bargained with an Israeli vendor at the shuk.”
Caroll Dweck Sutton: By the way, that’s probably the hardest. Don’t start with Israel! That’s probably like the hardest place to do it. Start with like the Caribbean or Mexico.
Victor M. Braca: For sure. So I walk out and I’m like, “I’m so happy with myself.” And then my friend points out to me, “She probably just raised the price and then lowered it back to the original price.” I said, “You know what? That’s actually a really good point.” I think that’s something that happens in salary negotiations where people know they start you off low, and vice versa. If you’re giving a service, they’re starting you off high knowing that you’re planning on negotiating. So, first tip: get comfortable talking about money. Even if you don’t want the item, just do it for fun.
Caroll Dweck Sutton: Cool. Number two is, I think, the most important one: market research. This is what everybody will tell you. You have to know what the market is charging for whatever this thing is. If you’re running your own business and you’re charging per session or for a product, you have to know what other people are paying for it. If you’re going into a salary negotiation, you want to know what are people in entry-level positions getting paid for this job?
The best thing that I think you could do is talk to people in the company to really get an understanding of it—which, by the way, requires you to be comfortable talking. This is why we went in that order. But you can also do it on Glassdoor or online. Know that New York is usually a higher salary than other places, so make sure that when you’re looking, you’re looking at companies in New York or that you’re accounting for that. Actually, nowadays people will put the salary range on the job description. I think it’s actually required in New York to put the salary range, but don’t not do your market research. Still do it, because that’s your number one tool for negotiation, especially when it’s your first job and you don’t have much to go on.
Victor M. Braca: Okay, cool. Step three.
Caroll Dweck Sutton: Step three: you got to know your worth. I think this is the hardest thing, especially for people who are first getting into the job market. You think, first of all, the job market is a black hole. You apply to a million jobs; you’re just excited that you finally got one or you’re finally getting paid. And so you get to the point and you’re like, “whatever they give me, I’m going to take.”
But it’s actually really not true. Being on the other side of this, you don’t know how much time and effort and money goes into the hiring process. When somebody’s choosing you, they’re choosing you for a reason and they want you. Don’t think, “oh, if they don’t take me, there’s 100 other people.” It’s true there might be other people, but they really chose you for a reason. So knowing that and going in saying, “I’m the one they chose.” I’ll also say, by the way, if you make the wrong hiring decision, that can be horrible. So people really take it seriously.
Victor M. Braca: Interesting. Knowing that you have worth when you’re coming in, even if it’s your first job and you’re just excited to get paid.
Caroll Dweck Sutton: Exactly. Being able to hype yourself up: “I’m worth this. I got offered the job, so I know that I’m worth something.”
Victor M. Braca: I never thought about it from the employer standpoint.
Caroll Dweck Sutton: Hiring is really hard. Imagine you’re doing all the work that you already have to do, plus you’re hiring. If you hire the wrong person, it can cost tons of money to do it again. You put a lot of money down the drain paying that person and training that person. So companies want to make sure they’re doing it right. Know your worth.
Once you know your worth, the next best thing is… this is what people do all the time: “Okay, I know my worth, I know the market research, but you know what? I’m going to wait. I don’t want to make them think that I’m greedy, so I’m going to take whatever they give me the first time and I’m going to wait till my first raise, till I really show them what I can do, to negotiate.”
Big mistake. The best time to negotiate is that initial offer. Whether it’s your first job or a later job, that’s the best time because, like I just said, they just put so much money and time into you. They want you. That’s number one. Number two is also that any raise that you’re going to get after that is going to be a percentage of what you already have. So if you’re starting yourself off low, even your raise is going to be less because a percentage of a lower number is a lower number. That first time is when you have the most leverage because they want you. Once you’re already in the door, they know for you to leave is also a process. Don’t delay that first job offer; that’s when you should be negotiating.
Victor M. Braca: I think it also shows them that you’re not scared to confront the issue. If you push it off, they might just not think it’s an issue for you. If you’re bringing it up the first time, they know, “Okay, I can’t mess with this person and this is important to them.”
Caroll Dweck Sutton: Right, but you definitely have to do it nicely. You want to make sure that you’re being really gracious that you got the offer. We want to bring up your confidence and say you know your worth, but you don’t want to come in saying, “I’m the best, you got to give me whatever I want.” There’s a balance. You want to be super gracious: “I’m so excited to work here, I’m so happy to have gotten this job,” and then let’s talk about the salary.
Those were the four tips for preparation. Now, how do we actually go into the room? Number five is: let them make the first offer. I’ve gone back and forth on this, but I’m pretty confident now that you got to let them make the first offer.
This is the story that always sticks in my mind: I was talking to one of my friends and he was hiring for a really big position. He was telling me, “We have about $200,000 allocated for this job.” They were interviewing somebody they were really, really excited about. The candidate came in and they asked them, “Okay, how much are you looking for salary-wise?” and the person said, “100 to 120.” It burnt my heart to know that they just left $80,000 to $100,000 on the table because they shot themselves in the foot.
Victor M. Braca: That’s crazy. What do you say when they say, “What are you looking for in terms of a salary range?” How do you say it?
Caroll Dweck Sutton: You say, “I’d really love to hear what you guys had in mind.”
Victor M. Braca: I can say for me, running my video production business, the times when I’ve had the client give me a price first… as opposed to me charging $1,000 and I realize they’ve allocated $5,000.
Caroll Dweck Sutton: Exactly. I’ll tell you, businesses know this, the employers know this, so they will try to make you say your number. Not only that, they’ll sometimes ask you what you’ve been paid in the past. I don’t know if this is actually true, I didn’t look into it, but an HR person once told me that that’s not even legal in New York. But you’re not going to go back and be like, “that’s illegal, you can’t ask that.” I think it’s more just about being polite: “I don’t think my past jobs are really relevant here. This is a completely new role, and I’d love to hear what you guys had in mind and the full package so that I can assess it.”
Victor M. Braca: I think it’s important to note that a lot of people look at negotiation as “I’m going to get the most out of this person.” I remember the first day of Effective Negotiation class in Flatbush. Our teacher, Gaston Grois, walked in and he asked us, “What does negotiation mean?” I said something along the lines of “getting something that you want out of another person.” He said, “You guys are all wrong. It’s when two sides come into a discussion and they both leave happier.” It’s not trying to squeeze the last penny out of somebody in a way that they can’t afford. It’s reaching the perfect medium.
Caroll Dweck Sutton: It’s so true. I think that’s such great advice because especially when you’re working in a company, you don’t want to come in as greedy. But at the same time, you don’t want to feel like they’re taking advantage of you. The negotiation is all about finding that medium, but you do need to let them say the number first. This way you just know that you’re not shooting yourself in the foot. But don’t think that number is the be-all end-all. Most of the time people lowball on that first offer because they expect a negotiation.
Victor M. Braca: Got it. So you’re saying the first number they tell you could actually go up from there.
Caroll Dweck Sutton: It usually does. And now, since we did our market research and we know our worth, that conversation becomes a little bit easier. I’m not coming in and saying, “no, you got to give me an extra $20,000 just because I want it.” You’re able to come in and say, “Thank you so much, I’m so excited. Let me think about it and I’ll get back to you.” Give yourself some time to digest it and come up with your strategy.
If you were really hoping for more—let’s use real numbers—somebody offers you $70,000, you were really hoping for 80. Next tip: give a very specific number. We like to think in even numbers. If you give a very specific number… I love this one!
Here’s the book right here that I read four or five years ago, Never Split the Difference. It’s called “Negotiating as if your life depended on it,” by Chris Voss, a former FBI hostage negotiator. Great book. That was one of the tips I learned: give a very specific number and tell them why.
The premise is that when you’re negotiating for a hostage, you can’t say, “Okay, I’ll take a half of a hostage instead.” But he gives a lot of great tips. One of the things he says is when you’re giving a non-round number—if I come back with $78,500 as opposed to 75 or 80—it subconsciously, psychologically feels like you’ve done your research and there’s a reason why you came up with that number. It’s not like you’re just looking for the higher number. I also like to do it in a range: “I was looking more from 78,500 to 81,500. That’s really where I was looking. How can we get there?” Making it collaborative.
Victor M. Braca: I’ve used this specific number tactic in every single pricing proposal I’ve made, and it really helps with the legitimacy. It makes it seem like you put a lot of research into it. You mentioned “how can we reach an outcome that we both like.” I’m taken back to my days negotiating with my teachers in Flatbush for higher grades.
Caroll Dweck Sutton: By the way, that’s such a great place to do it!
Victor M. Braca: GPA points are no joke! I’ve seen people do it so poorly; they just put the teacher on the defensive.
Caroll Dweck Sutton: Exactly. You want to work together. I’ll actually move to my next tip, which I think is another great way to go about this. Sometimes we think it’s all about the number. Sometimes working through that is not just working on the salary number, but the perks.
I have slept on the perks when I was getting offers. I didn’t realize how valuable perks were until I was a little bit older. There are definitely other things that you can use in your negotiation. Sometimes the employer’s hands really are tied; they have a ceiling. But maybe they would be willing to negotiate with other things like more vacation days. So I can’t pay you more in your salary, but I can give you more vacation days. Effectively, you’re getting more money per day. Or health insurance, better plans.
One thing that was really big for me—shout out to Flatbush, they have a great retirement plan. When I first got the job there, I was 21 years old. I had no idea about retirement; my financial literacy was nothing. But they match it, which is really nice. I looked at it recently and I think over five years it was like over $200,000. I wasn’t getting paid that much when I started there! That’s something I never would have thought to negotiate with.
Victor M. Braca: It’s an important thing to note that perks like vacation days could be more valuable to you than they are costly for the company. Reaching a better outcome for both of you.
Caroll Dweck Sutton: Exactly. And then they feel like you’re willing to work with them. One thing I wanted to add—a tip I heard on a podcast recently: name your figure and shut up. What do I mean by that? Basically, you say the range you’re looking for, then you shut up. When it comes to money, I get a little uncomfortable. If I’m pitching a client and I tell them the video is $1,250, and then I start explaining to them why it’s that much and my costs involved… all that does is show them that I’m not confident in my number. Name your price and shut up. It shows them you know your worth.
I love that because also when I get nervous, I talk myself in circles. You got to be confident in what you say and let them… put them on the fence. I have to remind myself every time I get on a call: name my price and shut up.
Victor M. Braca: Kosher Media is the premier advertising network of Jewish communities worldwide. They know how to get the right messages to the right audiences, reaching hundreds of thousands of people through text, email, and social blasts. If you’re looking to grow your reach or sharpen your marketing within the Jewish community, check them out at koshermedia.com. I want to thank Kosher Media again for sponsoring this episode. Let’s get back into it. Okay, so what’s next?
Caroll Dweck Sutton: Last tip, tip number eight. Shout out to my husband; he gave me this tip and it’s been so helpful: get it in writing. He basically said—and I really don’t think anybody has any mal-intent—people promise things and then go back on their word simply because we forget. If you have a bunch of employees and you’re making promises to them, and then a year later you want to talk about it again, people forget what they said in the moment.
The best thing is actually don’t wait for them to write it to you. After you have a meeting, write it up and say, “Hi, it was a great meeting today. Just want to make sure that we’re on the same page.” Write out exactly everything that you talked about. This way you have it, and they can never say, “I don’t remember saying that,” because you can show them the email.
Victor M. Braca: There have been so many times where I made that mistake of not getting something in writing. It could really just be a miscommunication.
Caroll Dweck Sutton: Right. So those were my main tips in terms of especially that first salary negotiation. And then there are tips for let’s say you wanted to get a raise. When you’re first time negotiating your salary, they don’t know you yet. When you’re actually in the company, there’s a lot that you can do to set yourself up for a raise.
Number one is: when they tell you to do ABC and this is your job description, always look and see what you can do above and beyond that job description. When you go into that room and say, “You hired me to do ABC and I did ABC really well, you should give me a raise,” that’s okay, but it’s what they hired you to do. If you can say, “You hired me to do ABC and I’ve actually been doing DEF, and that’s why I think I should get a raise,” that’s much more compelling.
Victor M. Braca: I actually wish I brought the book down! I read a great book, Impact Players by Liz Wiseman.
What that book says is all about standing out in your organization by taking things off of people’s plates and getting on your manager’s radar.
Caroll Dweck Sutton: It really does two things: you’re going above and beyond your job description, but you’re also building that network within your company. We actually find a lot of research shows it’s not the people who do their job the best that always get the raises; a lot of times it’s the people who are the most likable in the office. You need to find that thing that makes you irreplaceable.
Victor M. Braca: I want to go back to one more thing. Nowadays with social media, you have so many more opportunities to do this. If you work at a corporate company, start posting things on LinkedIn that will help other people. That brings a little bit of publicity to the firm. Also just meeting new people; you’re a walking advertisement for the company. Hillel Fuld mentioned how they actually changed his position to “Chief Evangelist” just because he was always out meeting entrepreneurs and elevating the brand. If you’re a star player for the company, they will appreciate that.
Caroll Dweck Sutton: That’s an awesome point. Another thing is: make yourself really invaluable. Build up your network so people think, “we can’t lose Victor.” Or gain a skill that nobody else in the office has. If we lose Victor, we lose the only person who knows how to use this software. You need to find that thing that makes you irreplaceable.
Victor M. Braca: And then once you have all these things, write it all down. Keep track of all your successes. If you can quantify it in numbers, that’s even better: “Because of the things I’ve done, we’ve increased revenue by this amount or increased efficiency by this many hours.” We assume our bosses know exactly what we’re doing, but they can’t know what everyone’s doing.
Rabbi Herzberg gave me a great tip early on in 10th grade. He said, “everything you do, write it down.” I kept a Google sheet throughout high school and wrote down everything I did and approximately how many hours it took me. That way, if I ever needed to ask for something, I could bring this. It also helps me know my worth.
Caroll Dweck Sutton: Usually when you’re doing things above and beyond, people recognize it. They know you’re not doing it just for the raise; they know that you’re so committed. Step zero is you have to actually be interested and want to do it. If you’re forcing yourself just for the money, it’s not sustainable.
The other big thing when talking about raises is you should be talking about this with your boss regularly, even when it’s not the time for it. Having that open communication and saying, “What more can I be taking on to get to my goal?” Then the person knows where your head’s at. Don’t wait until the raise to have that conversation; have it all the time. Sometimes they’ll come to you with the raise before you even get there.
You have to be comfortable about money to do that. If you never spoke about money before, you’re not going to feel comfortable.
Victor M. Braca: Although I’m comfortable talking about money, the idea of asking for a raise still gets me nervous.
Caroll Dweck Sutton: It reminds me of going to my dad for money when I was younger. My dad always made it a thing where you really had to ask for it. “Why do you need it? What is it for?” I guess that was part of my training. Getting your kids comfortable talking about money from a young age is a really great tip.
Victor M. Braca: All right, great set of tips. We’ll create a one-pager and I’ll link it in the description. How did you get into being a negotiation strategy consultant?
Caroll Dweck Sutton: It was two things happening at the same time. I was working with private clients who were getting new jobs, but also when I was working at Yeshivah Flatbush, we had these senior sessions for life skills. I said, “Okay, this is a really valuable skill.”
Victor M. Braca: I was actually lucky enough to hear it as a junior because one day you came into class. You said, “Guys, if you don’t find this relevant, I promise I won’t feel bad, you could leave.” And everyone stayed! If it was another sub, we probably would have left, but it was Caroll, so we stayed. It was helpful, and look—it led to this!
Caroll Dweck Sutton: Thank you for bringing Momentum and these masterclasses to the community. I think it’s so valuable.
Victor M. Braca: Well, thank you for leading Propel and starting the Chapters by Propel podcast.
Caroll Dweck Sutton: I like that we can collaborate instead of being competition.
Victor M. Braca: I don’t believe in competition. But listen, thanks so much. I hope you enjoyed the first episode of Momentum Masterclass. I definitely learned a ton.
I actually prepared a one-page cheat sheet you can get in the description. It outlines all of the tips that Caroll shared with us. Make sure you’re following us on Instagram and subscribed on YouTube and Spotify because we have amazing episodes coming up with topics like AI, personal finance, investing, networking, and public speaking. See you next time.
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